00;00;00;00 - 00;00;04;23 Speaker 1 Welcome to our deep dive. Today we're looking at personas. In product design. 00;00;04;26 - 00;00;11;11 Speaker 2 Yeah. Specifically how? Getting them wrong. Or maybe focusing on the wrong ones can really derail a project. 00;00;11;13 - 00;00;18;09 Speaker 1 Exactly. We want to figure out how to avoid designing for, well, the wrong user. It happens more than you'd think. 00;00;18;10 - 00;00;20;03 Speaker 2 Oh, absolutely. Even to the big players. 00;00;20;08 - 00;00;31;02 Speaker 1 So whether you're prepping for a design meeting, just brushing up, or you're curious about how stuff gets made. This should be useful. We're drawing on advice from folks like the Nielsen Norman Group. Some case studies. 00;00;31;02 - 00;00;35;16 Speaker 2 And practical guides. Yeah. There's a really interesting story in there about Amtrak, actually. 00;00;35;17 - 00;00;39;18 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. The assigned seating pilot. That's a perfect cautionary tale to start with. 00;00;39;19 - 00;00;42;10 Speaker 2 It really is. It highlights the core issue perfectly. 00;00;42;11 - 00;00;49;20 Speaker 1 Okay, so let's jump into that Amtrak example. They wanted to improve how passengers got on board. Right. Assigned seating seems logical, totally logical. 00;00;49;20 - 00;00;59;19 Speaker 2 And the design team, they did their homework on the user experience of the seating system itself, the interface, the flow. User testing apparently went well. 00;00;59;21 - 00;01;00;29 Speaker 1 People found it easy to use. 00;01;01;04 - 00;01;08;17 Speaker 2 Yeah. The design itself wasn't the problem. The twist was who they tested it on versus who the pilot program actually targeted. 00;01;08;20 - 00;01;10;25 Speaker 1 Okay. So who was the target for the pilot? 00;01;11;01 - 00;01;14;29 Speaker 2 First class travelers. Specifically on the Northeast Corridor route. 00;01;15;01 - 00;01;18;26 Speaker 1 And how did that differ from the personas they, originally designed for? 00;01;19;02 - 00;01;25;29 Speaker 2 Drastically. It turns out a significant number of those first class passengers, they don't book their own travel. 00;01;26;05 - 00;01;28;25 Speaker 1 Oh, so, like, assistance booking for them? 00;01;28;26 - 00;01;39;08 Speaker 2 Exactly. So you had people boarding the train. Maybe they got an email confirmation for it to them. Maybe not. But they certainly weren't involved in selecting a seat. They turn up, get on the train. 00;01;39;08 - 00;01;42;09 Speaker 1 And have no idea they even have an assigned seat, let alone which one it is. 00;01;42;09 - 00;01;52;01 Speaker 2 Precisely. The whole system designed to make onboarding smoother, just fell apart because the actual user behavior, the context of how they booked and boarded wasn't accounted for. 00;01;52;01 - 00;01;57;17 Speaker 1 Wow. So a perfectly decent UX design. Completely undermined. Yeah. 00;01;57;20 - 00;02;03;02 Speaker 2 It's a powerful lesson, isn't it? Good UX isn't enough if it's aimed at the wrong assumptions about the user. 00;02;03;09 - 00;02;09;11 Speaker 1 It really makes me ask, are you sure you know who you're building this for? Are you positive you're designing for the right people? 00;02;09;12 - 00;02;13;24 Speaker 2 That's the million dollar question. And that's where personas done, right. Come in. 00;02;13;25 - 00;02;18;24 Speaker 1 Okay, so let's define personas a bit more clearly. We were talking about these fictional characters. 00;02;18;24 - 00;02;32;13 Speaker 2 Essentially fictional, yes, but rooted in reality. Or at least they should be. They represent your target users. You give them names, backstory, goals, behaviors, needs, crucially, their pain points to. 00;02;32;15 - 00;02;35;08 Speaker 1 So they're not just vague descriptions like busy professional. 00;02;35;09 - 00;02;44;23 Speaker 2 No, no, much more specific. They help the entire team. Designers, developers, product managers make decisions based on the user, not just well themselves. 00;02;44;24 - 00;02;50;02 Speaker 1 All right, avoiding that I am the user trap what Nielsen Norman Group calls self-referential design. 00;02;50;03 - 00;02;59;01 Speaker 2 Exactly. Or designing based on the loudest voice in the room. Personas provide a common language, a shared understanding. They foster empathy. 00;02;59;03 - 00;03;03;02 Speaker 1 Empathy is key and they help guide choices. Prevent feature creep. 00;03;03;02 - 00;03;12;06 Speaker 2 Definitely. If a proposed feature doesn't align with the needs or goals of your key personas. It's much easier to question its value. It keeps everyone focused. 00;03;12;09 - 00;03;18;06 Speaker 1 Okay, that makes sense. But you mentioned personas done right. I know there are different kinds out there, like proto personas. 00;03;18;07 - 00;03;24;15 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's often where things start. Proto personas are, usually created pretty quickly, maybe in a workshop setting. 00;03;24;15 - 00;03;27;11 Speaker 1 Based on the team's existing knowledge and assumptions. 00;03;27;11 - 00;03;35;09 Speaker 2 Pretty much. It's a way to get initial ideas down, align the team's understanding, even if it's based on hypotheses at that stage. It's a starting. 00;03;35;09 - 00;03;38;24 Speaker 1 Point. So like a rough sketch, you know, they need validation later. 00;03;38;26 - 00;03;45;09 Speaker 2 Absolutely. They're explicitly understood as assumptions to be tested and refined with actual user research. 00;03;45;13 - 00;03;51;24 Speaker 1 Got it. Then you sometimes hear about marketing personas. How do they differ from, say, design personas? 00;03;51;25 - 00;04;01;07 Speaker 2 That's a good distinction. Marketing personas often focus more on the buyer, their purchasing decisions, demographics, media habits, motivations for buying. 00;04;01;10 - 00;04;03;12 Speaker 1 So they might be different from the actual end user? 00;04;03;16 - 00;04;22;15 Speaker 2 Sometimes, yeah. Think about software sold to businesses. The I.T manager who buys it. Marketing persona focus has different needs and considerations than the employee who uses it daily. Design. Persona. Focus. You might need both, but for UX design, we're generally more concerned with the end user experience. 00;04;22;16 - 00;04;28;09 Speaker 1 Right. Okay, so moving beyond those, what about personas based more on like actual data. 00;04;28;10 - 00;04;34;20 Speaker 2 Now you're getting into behavioral personas and data driven personas. This is where things get really powerful for design. 00;04;34;20 - 00;04;36;29 Speaker 1 Because they're grounded in what people actually do. 00;04;37;01 - 00;04;45;15 Speaker 2 Exactly. Behavioral personas often emerge from analyzing usage data analytics logs, maybe even support tickets. You look for patterns. 00;04;45;20 - 00;04;50;28 Speaker 1 Like, groups of users who always use a specific feature, or maybe ones who drop off at a certain point. 00;04;50;28 - 00;05;02;06 Speaker 2 Precisely. You segment users based on how they interact with the product. For example, maybe you see a cluster of users who only ever use the search function and ignore navigation. That tells you something important. 00;05;02;08 - 00;05;04;21 Speaker 1 And data driven personas. Take that a step further. 00;05;04;24 - 00;05;20;25 Speaker 2 They tend to use more quantitative data, often statistical analysis maybe survey data combined with analytics to identify significant user clusters. It helps ensure your personas aren't just based on a few anecdotes, but represent real segments of your audience. 00;05;20;27 - 00;05;25;25 Speaker 1 But isn't there a risk of relying too much on just the numbers missing the Y. 00;05;25;26 - 00;05;35;29 Speaker 2 Huge risk. That's why the best approach often combines this quantitative data with qualitative insights. But what from analytics and the Y from user interviews or observation? 00;05;36;04 - 00;05;40;15 Speaker 1 Okay. Which brings us to what you called the gold standard I think. Yeah. Validated personas. 00;05;40;15 - 00;05;55;05 Speaker 2 Yes. These are the personas that have been rigorously developed and confirmed through direct user research, interviews, field studies, usability tests. You've talked to real people, watch them use the product, and refined your understanding based on that evidence. 00;05;55;08 - 00;05;58;22 Speaker 1 So you have high confidence these represent real users and their needs. 00;05;58;22 - 00;06;02;16 Speaker 2 Much higher confidence. Yes. It reduces the guesswork significantly. 00;06;02;19 - 00;06;07;18 Speaker 1 But I imagine that takes real time and resources. Is it always necessary to go that deep? 00;06;07;25 - 00;06;18;10 Speaker 2 It's an investment for sure. But consider the cost of building the wrong product or feature like Amtrak potentially did. The investment and validation can save you much more down the line. 00;06;18;13 - 00;06;22;05 Speaker 1 That's a fair point. Yeah, it's like insurance against designing in the dark. 00;06;22;11 - 00;06;33;12 Speaker 2 Kind of yeah. And Nielsen Norman Group points out another pitfall making personas too broad or generic. You know, tech savvy millennial. What does that even mean in practice? 00;06;33;12 - 00;06;34;16 Speaker 1 Right. It's not actionable. 00;06;34;18 - 00;06;46;01 Speaker 2 Exactly. You need specifics instead of small business owner. Maybe it's Elena, the Etsy seller who needs simple invoicing and mobile inventory tracking that gives you concrete design targets. 00;06;46;02 - 00;06;53;17 Speaker 1 So better to have fewer really well-defined research backed personas than a large cast of vague ones. 00;06;53;17 - 00;06;58;12 Speaker 2 That's generally the advice. Yes, focus on the primary user groups whose needs you absolutely have to meet. 00;06;58;19 - 00;07;04;26 Speaker 1 And this isn't a one and done thing, is it? This journey from proto persona to validated persona. It's iterative. 00;07;04;28 - 00;07;12;11 Speaker 2 Oh, absolutely. Persona should be living documents. As you learn more, as the market changes, as your product evolves, you need to revisit and update them. 00;07;12;15 - 00;07;23;01 Speaker 1 So you might start with proto personas. Then do some initial interviews to refine them, then maybe layering some analytics for behavioral insights and eventually conduct deeper studies for validation. 00;07;23;04 - 00;07;34;25 Speaker 2 That's a very common and effective path. You use different research methods interviews, surveys, field studies, analytics at different stages to build increasingly robust and reliable personas. Keep refining. 00;07;34;28 - 00;07;42;21 Speaker 1 Make sense? Okay, creating them is one thing, but how do you make sure they actually get used? I've heard stories of personas just gathering dust. 00;07;42;24 - 00;07;48;16 Speaker 2 That's the crucial next step. They're useless if they're just artifacts. You have to actively integrate them into the workflow. 00;07;48;17 - 00;07;50;26 Speaker 1 How do you do that effectively? Any practical tips? 00;07;50;27 - 00;08;02;07 Speaker 2 Make them visible. Literally put posters up in the team space. Use them in presentations. Start design reviews by asking, okay, which persona are we solving for here? How does this meet their needs? 00;08;02;14 - 00;08;06;12 Speaker 1 So constantly bringing the conversation back to the user via the persona? 00;08;06;13 - 00;08;17;13 Speaker 2 Yes. Refer to them by name. Would Sarah understand this? Does this workflow solve Marc's frustration? Integrate them into user stories if you're using agile. 00;08;17;15 - 00;08;21;16 Speaker 1 Like as persona name, I want to action. So that benefit? 00;08;21;23 - 00;08;34;04 Speaker 2 Exactly. Use them to prioritize features. Which features deliver the most value to your key personas? Use them to recruit participants for usability testing. Find people who match your persona profiles. 00;08;34;09 - 00;08;35;22 Speaker 1 And it's not just for designers, right? 00;08;35;26 - 00;08;47;10 Speaker 2 Absolutely not. Share them widely. Engage engineering. Marketing, support, even operations. Everyone should understand who the user is. It helps build that user centered culture across the board. 00;08;47;10 - 00;08;52;16 Speaker 1 So it becomes part of the shared language and decision making framework for the whole team, ideally the whole company. 00;08;52;16 - 00;08;58;14 Speaker 2 That's the ideal. Yes. When everyone is thinking about Sarah or Marc, you're much less likely to build something that misses the mark. 00;08;58;17 - 00;09;06;17 Speaker 1 This has been really illuminating. It's clear that personas aren't just a checkbox. Exercise is fundamental if you want to design effectively. 00;09;06;18 - 00;09;19;05 Speaker 2 They really are. Remember that Amtrak story? Great design, execution, but aimed incorrectly. Getting the Who right is just as critical. Maybe even more critical than getting the how right initially. 00;09;19;05 - 00;09;24;01 Speaker 1 It really drives home that core message. Designing for the right user is paramount. 00;09;24;08 - 00;09;37;22 Speaker 2 It is an maybe a final thought for listeners. Think about a product you use all the time. Does it feel like it was truly designed with you? Your specific needs, your behaviors in mind? 00;09;37;24 - 00;09;38;06 Speaker 1 That's a good. 00;09;38;06 - 00;09;48;00 Speaker 2 Exercise. And if not, how would you describe a user like yourself? Could you sketch out a mini persona for yourself and think about how the product could better meet your needs based on that? 00;09;48;03 - 00;09;55;17 Speaker 1 That really brings it home. Thinking about how we fit or don't fit the intended user profile. Great food for thought. 00;09;55;19 - 00;09;56;10 Speaker 2 Hopefully. 00;09;56;12 - 00;10;05;04 Speaker 1 Well, thanks so much for walking us through. This has been a fantastic deep dive into personas. And for anyone wanting to explore further. Definitely check out the resources from the Nielsen Norman Group. 00;10;05;04 - 00;10;08;20 Speaker 2 Yeah, they have a wealth of information on this topic. Really valuable stuff.